Pursuant to the discussion about writing and Sherlock and Stephen Thompson’s role in it all that’s happening on this thread over here, I am going to celebrate Friday by doing a bit of a core dump about plotting.
Wow, this is great background on story vs plot and how that plays out for us in Sherlock. I think that your observation of this in Doctor Who is an excellent explanation for why some of us find that show so frustrating, and frustrating in a way that undermined what we found enthralling in Sherlock’s s1-2.
I will note that s3 was also when Sherlock shifted to the Doctor Who mode of different directors (and the same stable Moffat was working with in DW) for each ep, each of them admittedly working to put their own spin on the show and its characters. By itself, not a cause but indicative of and surely a contributor to the move away from plot as the major show mode.
This made me wonder what Aristoteles/Forster thought about “it was all a dream” as an ending to a story. There seem to be quite a few Sherlock fans who have embraced that as a theory. Sure, it doesn’t matter what happens and how crazy everything is if it’s a dream but shouldn’t it at least be made clear to the audience when something is not meant to be real? And it would hardly be a fitting solution to a mystery show. But of course some Sherlock fans think that we are supposed to solve the mystery and the answer is that someone is dreaming, or it’s all MP. To me it sounds like the easiest way out and something all great sleuths would laugh at but who knows.
I mean, I feel like the only thing making Mofftiss writing worse would be if they ended up saying that what happened in the last few episodes wasn’t real. They’d be admitting they failed at writing all of them if they suddenly decided to do s5 and, say, have Sherlock wake up at a hospital after the fall/the shooting. It’s not like Benedict’s some sort of Patrick Duffy or whatever. I don’t know much about what is “allowed” in modern shows but I’m wondering if it would be thought clever or just cheating their audience. They made TAB already and have had MP scenes. If they don’t need to make up an excuse to reintroduce an actor, what legit excuses could they possibly have to make half of their episodes not reality? What excuses do shows use? Yes, Sherlock fell/was shot and is now in coma sounds reasonable but why would they need to do it? For so many episodes?
@milarvela
The problem with this theory is that lots and lots of people are sure that it is nothing more but just an excuse for “poor” writing, plot holes, inconsistencies/contradictions of S4.
But, first of all, this idea appeared not out of nowhere and not as the best explanation that would cover all the fuckiness of the latest episodes. It’s been built on huge amount of facts: visual, textual, subtextual.
It doesn’t necessarily has to be something like “and then he wakes up and it turns out that everything was a dream”. As for me (and some other people), I see perfect metaphorical sense in S4 if I apply Sherlock’s POV here. I don’t need to do any difficult mind gymnastics, it’s hiding right below the surface level.
I, personally, don’t like the idea of “waking up”, because, though it’s possible to “explain” visually/textually, the majority of the audience won’t buy it. If the explanation of HOW and, more importantly, WHY isn’t convincing enough, it’ll be a disaster.
If they used dream logic (like disappearing blood or people, or repeated scenes and lots of mirroring), hired the same actors (the girl from ASiB as the girl on the plane), used the same physical objects, created something that begs for attention (glowing skull), wrote something that makes absolutely beautiful sense metaphorically (especially Eurus) ACCIDENTALLY and there won’t be any outcome, I’ll be laughing like crazy.
This idea (of extended mind palace) has.never.been and will.never.be just an “excuse” for their “poor” writing. Personally, no matter what resolution is coming (if there IS any), this reading will be my favorite for being the most convincing and deep in its importance.
By the way, is there something wrong with believing that we’re, as an audience, have to solve a mystery to understand what’s going on? I’ve always thought that “Sherlock” is practically made for that. Of course, the writers went out of control a little bit if S4 is indeed a mystery for the audience.
If it turns out that S4 has to be taken at face value and it is what it is, I’ll accept that Mofftiss are actually shitty writers, and I’ll be wondering till the end of my days how was it possible to film something so deep and beautiful metaphorically.. by accident.
But for me, Sherlock’s inner understanding of himself hasn’t ended with TAB. The motifs of being “deep” (deep waters) and “high” (I’m lost in a sky) are stretching through S4. Here we’re faced with his worst fears (especially about John), his low self-esteem (and we know that deep inside, in his MP, he thinks of himself poorly, remember HLV), his struggles between brain and heart, mind and sentiment. There’s been a lot of amazing posts analysing Eurus as Sherlock’s inner part. Again, it doesn’t make me do any weird mind gymnastics, it’s right below the surface, and if it’s true and the writers will be able to explain how and why they did it, I’ll be glad. @monikakrasnorada made a series of posts analysing the increasing amount of time Sherlock spent in his MP from S1 to TAB. In TAB it’s become almost impossible to distinguish Sherlock’s mind palace from reality. There’s a lot to think about.
To sum up: I hope there IS some logical resolution, logical and convincing for the audience (because, if they were ready for post-TFP backlash, as they said, I don’t think they would do it without any plans for future, but who knows). I hope there is something more than “waking up” from a dream, because 90% of their audience won’t believe that it’s been planned, they will label it as an excuse for the plot holes.
How can it be explained, why we’re dealing with Sherlock’s POV, but not in show’s reality, who the hell knows.
Sorry for long comment.
I don’t think it’s deep or beautiful, metaphorically or otherwise. The sharks are
unintentionally funny, Sherlock’s orange and stupid, the tale of the merchant fails because it’s about Mary but for some reason Sherlock is telling it like it’s about him, John’s ugly (literally in TLD), angry and violent, Eurus is ridiculous, and Mycroft hiding her for decades would require mind gymnastics beyond my capacities. Not to mention how tasteless the whole dogboy thing is and what it does to earlier episodes.
I don’t know when the idea made its first appearance but it became popular after TAB when even the most eager Johnlockers started to doubt the idea that John had a plan and was secretly in love with Sherlock.
But I do agree that very few people would believe they’d been planning a wakening all along. Most people wouldn’t believe it no matter what. The more they would try to explain it, the worse it would look for them, I think. Which they wouldn’t do anyway, because they didn’t intend TFP or anything else in S4 to be a dream. It was the ending of the show for now, no cliffhanger to ponder, just what they undoubtedly thought was a beautiful and deep tribute to the boys uttered by Mary.
Didn’t they say someplace that they aren’t nearly as clever as some fans think?
And let’s not forget that they gave Smith bad teeth because it’s supposed to symbolise the character’s evilness or something.
The boy Carl Powers drowns in a pool. The boy Victor Trevor drowns in a well.
Carl is killed by Jim Moriarty, another child. Victor is killed by Eurus Holmes, another child.
Sherlock calls this the case “where I began”. Eurus calls this his “very first case”.
Jim uses the murder to taunt Sherlock. Eurus uses the murder to taunt Sherlock.
So far for the astonishing parallels. But the differences are equally interesting:
The death of Carl Powers has been established.
The death of Carl Powers has been investigated by the police.
The death of Carl Powers has been documented by the media.
The death of Carl Powers has not been suppressed or forgotten by Sherlock.
But what about Victor’s death? We never learn anything about it. It is as if the boy had disappeared and no one but Sherlock had ever cared about it. It was apparently never investigated with the police. It was not even dramatic enough to send Eurus away at this point – for killing a little boy. Instead the Holmes family waited until she set fire to the house to put her away in an institution. The whole Victor Trevor case is strangely private, a family affair, nothing else.
The funny thing, however, is that TFP tries to substitute the Victor case for the Carl Powers case. The episode wants to make us believe that Eurus was always more important than Jim, that her first murder was his first case and not Moriarty’s, that Sherlock began at Musgrave Hall instead of the pool. But this does not really work for me because the Carl Powers case is so much more elaborate and believable and supported by police records and media coverage.
You know, I’d felt something nagging at me about Victor drowning (I mean, aside from the fact that Victor in the books was not a drowned not-dog) , but could never really pin where that feeling was coming from.
THIS, though! You did it! I do feel like the Carl Powers case is the one that Mofftiss went out of their way to highlight to discuss, to point the finger back to Where It Started, and I feel like if they HADN’T made the (self-admitted) mistake of killing Moriarty off too early, there would have been zero need for Eurus. Eurus was created, then, to be a Moriarty placeholder, which makes Victor’s death a sort of ersatz Powers death
“which makes Victor’s death a sort of ersatz Powers death” yes!
Sublimation is a hell of a drug, right? @privatelyvex
Great thoughts, @privatelyvex.
it also seems weird to me that they wrote the whole carl powers story, which has zero basis in ACD, and then (pardon the expression) shit all over the victor trevor story, by making up this ridiculous nonsense, which again has zero basis in ACD besides the name. I get that the ridiculous nonsense means that it’s symbolic, but it still irks me. The compare and contrast is interesting, but why? What are they trying to get across?
@sarahthecoat, I tend to be a bit cynical when it comes to second-guessing producer intent, but while I’d love for the Carl Powers storyline to have been this crazy, mad thought-out thing that extended for four seasons and had some impossible-to-predict payoff at the end (”Molly Hooper is Carl sister? Whuuut?!”) it could be something as simple as justifying the pool location for the season one finale. Visually it’s pleasing, and the way the words echo is nicely ominous.
As to shitting all over Victor Trevor, dude, as someone who’s written that character often (albeit, only barely canonically), I was cut to the quick by that plot twist, and I can’t see why you’d trash that character UNLESS you really want to make the point that John is the only adult friend (read that as you will) that Sherlock’s ever had, ever. Which, okay, but why?
(And wouldn’t The Wig count as a friend, kind of? But that’s another story…)
YES. Not to mention mike stamford, mrs hudson, angelo, lestrade, molly, raz, the entire homeless network, etc. I get that john still stands out in that group, but he’s much more friendless than sherlock… BUT, trying not to go off topic… the carl powers case is kind of “opposite day” to the gloria scott story too, in that “nobody listened” to sherlock about Carl’s shoes, but in GLOR, the trouble happened because the trevors did listen to him. (well, and mr trevor’s old enemy did come back around, which had nothing to do with sherlock) I’m never sure with these writers, if they expect us to know the canon characters whose names they attach to their OCs, and do some kind of mental gymnastic… and/or to recognize canon characters, or characteristics, they give “decoy” names to…
There were a few scenes that have now become ‘the missing scenes’ of s4. Some people think they are evidence of a LS. Just want to address some of the speculation from a setlock viewpoint:
All of us on Ruther2′s setlock team can attest, the research and investigation on every scene we knew was being filmed was intense. Often we had set lockers on location at the time a scene was being filmed. We also had connections with the crew to see if any info could be obtained via that source. Some of us took time off work to cover the setlock period to just work on incoming information. Certain set lockers worked tirelessly for hours deciphering scripts, notes, partial written documents, you guys were awesome. It was indeed a well run organised operation. Kudos always to Ruther, he was excellent at running the entire thing, and the rest of the team that gave input, time, finances, hours, countless boring vigil at locations that were less than enjoyable, artworks, photographs, videos and of course dedication and energy.
It must be noted that filming of several unused scenes is normal for BBC Sherlock. S4 was not an anomaly. So lets’s look at some of those now fabled lost scenes from s4:
Martin on a camel
Niagara Falls
MI6/Vauxhall Cross
Mint and Mustard
Taking these scenes one by one:
Martin on a camel; Ruther himself debunked this one as being Martin. He discovered the project that was using the camel footage and it had nothing to do with BBC Sherlock. Yes, the profile of the person on the camel looked a little like Martin, but it wasn’t him.
Niagara Falls: Nick Hurran was working in Canada before he came home to direct TLD. The timing was tight, Nick could not do recees with Arwel and the team. Tom Guy, from the locations dept went over to Canada to get Nick’s approval on locations for TLD. This would usually be done by Nick in person but due to the work project in Canada he couldn’t be there. Nick as director has to sign off on the locations. During the time Tom was in Canada he sent this tweet.
Now we all ran with this. It was a romantic location. Niagara is also a waterfall, and thus has a link to Sherlock via the idea of falling over a waterfall. It was great fun playing with this idea that John and Sherlock would end up in Niagara Falls for an adventure and finally kiss. It didn’t help that lurker Arwel joined in the fun, as a couple of weeks later in soggy London, now working on TLD, Arwel tweeted this:
It is a ‘stock’ photo of the falls, not one personally taken by the Sherlock crew. Arwel was very in tune to the fandom and despite his protestations later on, he very obviously and deliberately did ‘play’ with fandom theories.
Following the first tweet from Tom Guy the setlock crew kept a close eye on anything coming out of the Niagara area; scanning tweets, looking at local Niagara filming agencies, looking at any hint that cast and crew left the UK for Canada and were seen at airports, checking acting agencies recruiting for support actors in NF, or any support actor tweeting that they had been in a secret project there. None of the above came to light. There were a couple of fans who live in the area monitoring it too, and they didn’t see anything indicating a filming crew was at work at the Falls during the period. It’s not impossible that a scene was secretly filmed at a major tourist attraction with hundreds of people present on a daily basis but it is unlikely. Tom Guy appears to have taken a day trip to the Falls during a work assignment to get the locations OK’d by Nick Hurran. It was the boring conclusion most likely to have occurred.
MI6/Vauxhall Cross John and Sherlock scene: Two of the setlockers on location the day Benedict filmed the scenes on Vauxhall Bridge for the end of T6T were told by the security guys on site that a scene had been filmed inside the MI6/Vauxhall Cross building. They said that there was a scene with Martin that was filmed in an unused part of the building. This was never verified.
Mint and Mustard: Filmed, we had evidence.
Recently Mark and Steven mentioned they had filmed a ‘date night’ with John and Mary, but didn’t use it in the final cut for TST.
So in conclusion maybe some scenes were filmed to use in future projects, such as games/apps or in the Sherlock attraction if the BBC get their theme park. There are also copious unaired scenes from s1-TAB that they have stored away. It’s all additional footage chosen to be unaired by the show runner. It’s an industry practice. Maybe at Sherlocked in October Arwel will show some new stuff, as he does that, maybe Claire will discuss Amanda in various wigs that never made it to screen, and Loo dressed up in the Sherlock wig. There may be a new book or photos on sale of unaired images. They could put out a DVD one day of the unaired scenes. We just need to be careful that we don’t think certain scenes are fact when in truth they were only ever speculation. I advise that everyone checks out Ruther2′s Storify if ever in doubt.
sherlock: it’s not like it is in the movies. there’s no big spurt of blood and you go flying backwards
mary: big spurt of blood and she goes flying backwards
a character called the abominable bride introduced in the episode immediately after john’s new bride shoots the hero in the chest: “shoots” herself (and subsequently gets shot by some helper) and then haunts dudes via spectre while singing “do not forget me”
mary: gets shot by someone and then haunts john via spectre
also mary: i’m probably dead
also mary: when i’m gone, if i’m gone
me: alex i’ll take foreshadowing for a thousand please
I think one of Mofftiss big problems is that they think the success of Sherlock is due to them. When actually the success of Sherlock is mostly due to Ben and Martin as Sherlock and John and their fantastic chemistry and great acting.
You separate John and Sherlock or have a chaperone there the whole time, as was done in S4, and their pretty lackluster writing really starts to shine through.
Bribe: dishonestly persuade (someone) to act in one’s favour by a gift of money or other inducement.
We were roped in by a bribe; the cloaked promise of resolution of a romance. They played it well. They denied it at every turn, but flaunted it in their show by using every romantic trope in the book. They knew they could get away with it, never be convicted of queer baiting; well they did SAY that they were not giving us a same sex romance after all!!! My answer to that; you may not have said it, denied it in fact, but not all communication is verbal. The product contradicted you. Oh yes, the majority of the straight audience may have missed it on the surface level, and you can rely on stats based on them to prove your point, as they will never admit to seeing the attraction between John and Sherlock, but don’t tell an LGBTQ audience or an open minded straight audience that you were not baiting us in. Hell in some Asian countries the show was marketed as a gay vehicle. No, it is what it is, and the writers baited/bribed us with a resolution that would never occur. And it was an abominable use of media power. We made your show popular, the social media acted as a huge PR machine for the show, we enabled you to receive Emmys and Baftas. We boosted your incomes. We raised your profiles. You procured us with a promise to act in your favour.
time has passed since BBC Sh*rlock S4 aired. i am now old, wise and weathered and i’m convinced i have seen hell itself but the i love you trailer is still the cruelest thing that’s ever happened to me and i know this is coming out of nowhere on a random tuesday in july but i hereby proclaim that i am bitter
Eurus’s plan is the worst plan in a show with a lot of bad plans.
The Show has a lot of issues with telling instead of showing. it loves implying things, but it doesn’t want to commit. which is. frustrating. deeply frustrating. and it is different to me this time than it was the other times we got a series ended without our questions answered. tfp does 2 things for me. first of all it says that they have no qualms about abandoning years of set up in favor of spectacle, which makes me think that the confusion over who /what mary’s character is supposed to be was just sloppiness and not a planned villainous reveal. it also provides like. an end of the what we’d been seeing so far like. welp we’re all done with that. next time you see us, we’ll be doing something entirely new. but they didn’t resolve like?? anything??
it would be a lot lot lot easier for me to swallow the idea that there’s resolution/johnlock coming in s5 or some kind of secret special (what would be the point of the special being a secret tho? idgi) if they had resolved any other big plot points like as a show of good faith at least.
Sherlock Fandom Archive 